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Post by Tim Collins on Mar 25, 2009 7:28:47 GMT -7
I think it's interesting that in this discussion between the two of you, you seem to be conflating Catholicism with Christianity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that Catholicism is a Christian religion and I've even considered converting. I can't though because there are just some tenets of the Catholic faith that I can't accept (and I think this goes to your point, Snil). I don't get the idea of praying to Mary or the saints or anyone other than God and His Son. Snil you asked if one could be Catholic if they rejected the Holy Trinity. I don't think one that does that can consider themselves Christian (and why would they want to). I also don't understand confessing to a priest and him being able to absolve you. I think that's the province of God. Yes Rosa, crucify me if you must but I admit to being a Bible literalist if not a full on "fundy" (I've never intentionally handled a poison snake nor spoken in tongues, of course I'm talking more about the Pentacostals here). The reason for that is, if I have some belief that the Bible contains the word of God to at least some degree, I don't know what criteria could be used seperate what's to be believed and what's to be ignored. Can we just take the parts we like, the parts that make us feel good but reject the rest? I can't. Does that mean I'm perfect in my beliefs? Far from it. I struggle sometimes with the harsher parts of scripture (for there are indeed parts that are harsh and hard to accept just as there are parts that are awe inspiring and beautiful). In the end, I'll sum up what I believe by roughly quoting a line from the movie Rudy. In my life I'm sure of two things. One, there is a God and, two, I'm not Him. I don't believe in crucifying people for what they believe Web. I may not agree with what they say, I may dispute it or debate it, but one of the reasons why I argue against what I see as inflexibility in mandating that people accept doctrine without questionis because I don't think it's my right to decide what others should or shouldn't believe. I don't walk in their shoes. This is something that I've been challenged on for so many years....my supposed "moral ambiguity" And that is my conundrum. Religions DO require infallibility on core beliefs. That is what holds them together and defines a faith. Examples: Jesus IS the Son of God. Baptism IS required to erase original sin. The Pope IS directly descended (in metaphorical terms) from the Apostle Peter and is God's representative on earth. There WILL be a second coming. No flexibility is permitted.
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Post by webrunner on Mar 25, 2009 7:30:16 GMT -7
I believe (unless memory fails me) that the boiled down basic required beliefs for Catholics are stated in this prayer: NICENE CREED Profession of FaithWe believe in God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfilment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. The point of my discussion on this thread is if you reject any of these minimum beliefs - can you be a Catholic? For example, if you reject creationism? If you reject virgin birth? Oh, sorry. Can't really speak to what it means to be Catholic. I'll just let myself out.
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Post by Tim Collins on Mar 25, 2009 7:30:42 GMT -7
I guess I'm the "problem child" here I don't even agree that it is the Catholic church's "right" to determine who is/isn't an "acceptable" or "real" Catholic how's that for heresy? the church doesn't know what is in one's heart. Only God does And thus, like yours truely, you have left the catholic church.
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Post by Tim Collins on Mar 25, 2009 7:32:28 GMT -7
Web Can you speak to what it means to be Christian?
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Post by webrunner on Mar 25, 2009 7:39:24 GMT -7
I tried to Snil, but then you threw me out of this thread on my ear.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Mar 25, 2009 7:42:57 GMT -7
oh he did not....get back in there man! any Christian can speak to what it means to be Christian-that's my whole point. as to decrees from religious insititutions? prove it no flexibility may be "permitted" but then again, can they really enforce that? They can try, and they have and what has happened? People go their own way anyway because faith transceds
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Mar 25, 2009 7:44:17 GMT -7
you just killed it there snil--"in metaphorical terms"....
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Post by Tim Collins on Mar 25, 2009 7:51:53 GMT -7
oh he did not....get back in there man! any Christian can speak to what it means to be Christian-that's my whole point. as to decrees from religious insititutions? prove it no flexibility may be "permitted" but then again, can they really enforce that? They can try, and they have and what has happened? People go their own way anyway because faith transcends You just supported my original point - if you go your own way - are you a member of the specified group? The "in metaphorical terms" was meant to clarify that the Pope does not claim family descent. Faith - generically is different than CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN/BUDDHIST/ISLAMIC Faith - which is wrapped in a doctrine
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Mar 25, 2009 7:57:36 GMT -7
if you go your own way, it is up to you to decide if you still belong
not for somebody else to do that for you....you, snil can think what you want about whether or not someone fits the bill, but in the end, it's they who know what is true for them
what I am saying is that this logic, in and of itself, and just to me
can be just as inflexible.
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Post by Tim Collins on Mar 25, 2009 8:00:37 GMT -7
I tried to Snil, but then you threw me out of this thread on my ear. Sorry that was not my intention at all. The term "Christian" to me is sort of like Cola - it comes in many brands. To my simplistic way of thinking a Christian is one who believes Jesus Christ (see Christ = Christian) is God and Savior. Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Evangelicals are all Christians - they are just organized in a different manner and have different tenets of their faith, but share the faith that Jesus is God.
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Post by badlygiven on Mar 25, 2009 12:37:57 GMT -7
Christian is that which reflects Christ...yeah, my own definition, but oh well...
As to the Nicene Creed, the "one, holy catholic and apostolic church"...
notice all those things are lower case...meaning that they are not talking about the Catholic Church specifically, but about the universal church, the church of all.
So, what does it take to be a Catholic?
The Nicene Creed above is one of the best statements of belief...
Also, the Pope as Jesus' representative on earth, speaks on matters of spirituality and morality...basically, his job is to say that something is not contrary to the Scripture or Tradition of the church/Church.
Tradition-the "glasses" by which we bring Scripture into focus. Scripture does not exist in a vacuum...it is the result of living events. Imagine someone coming into your house, picking up a picture album of your family, and proceeding to tell you all about your family because of the pictures he sees...without the context, the "focus" of the people you know from the pictures, the lives you have experienced.
The Eucharist-retains the form of bread and wine, but is the real presence of Christ. Main tenet of the Catholic faith. Scriptural reference is the gospel of John, where Jesus tells many of the disciples that they must eat His Body and drink His Blood...many leave, not understanding His words, but the Eucharistic celebration, the sacrifice is established at the last supper. While many of our brother and sister faiths think of the body and blood as symbological, Catholics see it as real presence, since Jesus never established it as symbology, but as reality...
"This is my body"...not this is a symbol, or a representation...
"This is my blood"...same as above...
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Post by Tim Collins on Mar 25, 2009 12:42:50 GMT -7
Badly
Welcome to the discussion!
Now back to my original conundrum
The question then is if you are not in 100% agreement with your chosen religion's teachings and requirements - can you claim to belong?
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Post by badlygiven on Mar 25, 2009 13:08:42 GMT -7
Yep...the thing about the Church is that one of the things we are called to do is question...so in questioning, are you really 100% in agreement?
Also, I think the way the questioning is brought up...us Americans, even those who call themselves "liberal"...have a healthy lack of humility...meaning that it's our way or the highway. I bring our liberal freinds up because the only difference is their target of attack, not their methods...they can be as strident as the most extreme conservative.
Basically, if the Church does not agree with us, then our attitude is that we can't belong...
that's not true...when you were a member of your family, did you always agree with your parents? And if you didn't, when did you emancipate yourself? In much the same way, Catholics consider themselves a family, even regarding those who are "lapsed" as still part of the family. Even regarding Protestants as "seperated brethern"...family...not the perfect family, but family...
If you want an interesting read...take a look at the Q'uran...and see the words about Mary, her "specialness" to God, Jesus, and "the people of the Book"...
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Post by Tim Collins on Mar 25, 2009 13:43:40 GMT -7
Yep...the thing about the Church is that one of the things we are called to do is question...so in questioning, are you really 100% in agreement? Also, I think the way the questioning is brought up...us Americans, even those who call themselves "liberal"...have a healthy lack of humility...meaning that it's our way or the highway. I bring our liberal freinds up because the only difference is their target of attack, not their methods...they can be as strident as the most extreme conservative. Basically, if the Church does not agree with us, then our attitude is that we can't belong... that's not true...when you were a member of your family, did you always agree with your parents? And if you didn't, when did you emancipate yourself? In much the same way, Catholics consider themselves a family, even regarding those who are "lapsed" as still part of the family. Even regarding Protestants as "seperated brethern"...family...not the perfect family, but family... If you want an interesting read...take a look at the Q'uran...and see the words about Mary, her "specialness" to God, Jesus, and "the people of the Book"... So, If I am a Catholic and I decide I do not believe that Jesus is the son of God, but merely a prophet of God, then Can I partake of the Sacraments and still be a Catholic?
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Post by badlygiven on Mar 25, 2009 14:39:49 GMT -7
aahhh...the conundrum of who Jesus was...or is...
In the sense that one of the main tenets of the faith is the "fully human, fiully divine" nature of Jesus that was discerned over a millenia ago (the real reason for the Council of Nicea, btw), then it would be hard to still be "Catholic" and partake of the Sacraments...you would be more into the Jewish/Muslim view of Jesus than the Christian one. you couldn't participate in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, but still come to Mass. The thing is, to partake in the sacraments, there has to be a basic belief in the things of the Nicene Creed...and of the Real Presence in the Eucharist...
Now if your belief was a private one, you would have to ask yourself...why participate in something I don't beleive in? If you don't beleive that Jesus is the Son of God, if you don't beleive the basics of the faith...(not the religous/political)...then why participate? Now, if you are NOT SURE of Jesus being the Son of God...that is a different matter altogether...
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