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Post by badlygiven on Apr 19, 2009 16:37:44 GMT -7
you're right Web...I guess the thing is that we have been accused of not following Scripture, and therefore "going to Hell" by fringe fundamentalist sects, and even some more mainline denominations...but sacraments are based on scripture, so we paticipate in scripture. Sadly, we don't read a lot of it, though like Isaid, things are changing...
While we are not the communists of today, with their restrictions and paranoia, Catholics are "communist"..."In Acts of the Apostles, 2:44-45, they live together, sell all they have and each receives according to his need...which si after all, communism in it's purest form. Not the forced communism or socialism of today, but one in which everyone shared the fruits as well as the responsibilities. There was no "evil" segment of society. All were equal in sharing of the rewards and the work. Though many want to tie Christ to today's communism, it is not truly communism...it is authoritarianism in sheep's clothing...
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Apr 19, 2009 18:51:22 GMT -7
They educated you too well, snil? Where do you think I learned about the 3 to 1 odds needed for men to be safe with women? Remember the serpent? If it had been Adam, Bravo, Charlie and Eve - that snake wouldn't have had a chance and we would all still be naked. ;D I disagree. Odds on favorite would still have been Lucifer. Human nature is just too predictable, and besides there would have been no other way for centuries of purists to hang Eve for being "weak"
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Post by webrunner on Apr 20, 2009 8:36:43 GMT -7
you're right Web...I guess the thing is that we have been accused of not following Scripture, and therefore "going to Hell" by fringe fundamentalist sects, and even some more mainline denominations... I hope nothing I've ever said has led you to believe that I think this way. I don't believe that for a second. In every religion and denomination there are extremes, and as a rule, I don't trust any "sect" that preaches that you must have faith in this church or that church to be saved. I worship God and His Son, not religion. but sacraments are based on scripture, so we paticipate in scripture. Sadly, we don't read a lot of it, though like Isaid, things are changing...... I'm glad to hear that Badly, if for no other reason than that I think the Bible has some beautifully powerful language in it. While we are not the communists of today, with their restrictions and paranoia, Catholics are "communist"..."In Acts of the Apostles, 2:44-45, they live together, sell all they have and each receives according to his need...which si after all, communism in it's purest form. Not the forced communism or socialism of today, but one in which everyone shared the fruits as well as the responsibilities. There was no "evil" segment of society. All were equal in sharing of the rewards and the work. Though many want to tie Christ to today's communism, it is not truly communism...it is authoritarianism in sheep's clothing... And, as a Capitalist, this is why I could never convert (written with tongue planted firmly in cheek).
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Post by badlygiven on Apr 20, 2009 8:52:55 GMT -7
lol...the "communism" practiced in scripture is more "communalism" than communism. Today's version of the communist needs a central ruler, and excludes God.
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Post by Tim Collins on Apr 20, 2009 10:29:56 GMT -7
lol...the "communism" practiced in scripture is more "communalism" than communism. Today's version of the communist needs a central ruler, and excludes God. I knew I should have jumped in sooner - you stole my thunder. Communalism versus Communisim. The differences are stark, in both practice and philosophy.
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Post by webrunner on Apr 20, 2009 17:01:39 GMT -7
Okay, so I got your post...lol There are 3 main passages in the Gospel that are said by Christ...Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18, and John 20:23. Understand that this DOES NOT preclude people going to Christ directly. What it does is establish the fact that while it is Jesus that forgives sins, He did delegate to others...not in their name, or by their power to "loosen or bind" but through the power of Christ to forgive. Understand that God's forgiveness is His to give. What reconciliation does is give a physical voice to Christ, a way for those whose sins are serious to hear the actual words of forgiveness spoken physically. Initially, the sacrament of confession was a public, one time deal, and the penalties were harsh. Kings and other rulers who became Christian did so at the very end of their lives, because they knew they could not follow Him truly, and lead their people. It was the Irish who established a sense of privacy and also looked at the sacrament as a sacrament of renewal, instead of a one time sacrament. (There are 3 sacraments Catholics consider as one time, leaving an "indelible" mark on the conferee...Baptism (Triune and flowing water or immersion), Confirmation, and Ordination (once ordained, you're always ordained). So what does this mean to Catholics today? It is still one of the most difficult sacraments to celebrate, because we have to give voice to the offenses we have committed, or the good we have failed to commit. However, it is also one of the most fulfilling...afterwards, not during, lol. There is a sense of relief of leaving those sins behind, never to be remembered. The sacrament is recommended to be celebrated once a year, at Lent preferably. One of thei things that ties in with this is the Penitential Rite that takes place at the start of Mass... "I confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and what I have failed to do. And I ask Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God." Confieso ante Dios Todopoderoso, y ante ustedes hermanos, que he pecado de mi voluntad, en palabra, obra y omision. Por mi culpa, por mi culpa, por mi gran culpa. Y le pido a Santa Maria, Siempre Virgen, todos los angeles y los santos, y ustedes hermanos y hermanas, que oren por mi ante Dios Nuestro Senor. What's the difference between this and reconcilation? Reconciliation is more detailed. Now, what responsibilites does the priest have with reconciliation? First of all, mercy and forgiveness, if the person is repentant. And a seal that what is said in the confessional never leaves there...even if threatehed with death or imprisonment. And it is good, since we beleive that those sins disappear when Christ forgives them. Even if a person chooses not to go to a priest for confession but instead confesses their sin to the Lord in prayer and asks Him for forgiveness, do you think he/she as fully forgiven as one who observes the Catholic sacrament of confession? 1 John 1:9 bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1+John+1%3A9&version1=48What if someone confesses to 18 unsolved murders and gives graphic detail only the killer could know. Wouldn't the greater good be to turn the guy over?
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Post by badlygiven on Apr 20, 2009 17:46:26 GMT -7
I think with regard to the forgiveness of sins from Christ, the forgiveness from Him is the same whether it is done in the privacy of our hearts or in the confessional. Really, 2 things at work here. The first is the truly repentant heart...is the person going to "go forth and sin no more?" The second is our human need to sometimes actually physically hear the words of forgiveness. I like the sacrament simply because you hear the words you are forgiven, which come from Christ, through his minister. Mind you, it's not easy...
Question for you web, and I daresay this comes from ignorance. There have been a few of our Protestant brthern that I asked about what happens when someone has lived a difficult life filled with sin after being baptized. They tell me the person is re-baptized since the first one didn't "take". Is this true? I ask because our view of baptism is that it is a one time deal if it is done scripturally...
As to the murderer...if the priest in the confessional asks if the person is going to continue sinning, and that person says yes, the absolution may be withheld, since the person has no repentance. I guess I have asked myself the same question, but in doing so, realize that the seal is very much like the 5th amendment...If the person understands that the confessional is sacred and sealed, then it's different from a jail cell with Joey the snitch. Also, every priest that I know has said if confronted with this, they would urge the murderer to turn himself in, as doing so would be a sign of true repentance. Otherwise, pretty much to a man, they said that they would think hard about withholding absolution, since the person does not seem to be repentant...but that begs the question...if not repentant, then why confess at all? (Maybe a mind game for a twisted mind?)
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Post by webrunner on Apr 20, 2009 19:44:01 GMT -7
Question for you web, and I daresay this comes from ignorance. There have been a few of our Protestant brthern that I asked about what happens when someone has lived a difficult life filled with sin after being baptized. They tell me the person is re-baptized since the first one didn't "take". Is this true? I ask because our view of baptism is that it is a one time deal if it is done scripturally... I have not been shy about asking you questions. I'll be happy to answer yours. I need clarification though, when you say re-baptized, are you saying that a person was baptized once as a baby, then goes on to lead a "sinful" life. Are you asking me if that person needs to be baptized again?
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Post by badlygiven on Apr 20, 2009 19:51:09 GMT -7
Question for you web, and I daresay this comes from ignorance. There have been a few of our Protestant brthern that I asked about what happens when someone has lived a difficult life filled with sin after being baptized. They tell me the person is re-baptized since the first one didn't "take". Is this true? I ask because our view of baptism is that it is a one time deal if it is done scripturally... I have not been shy about asking you questions. I'll be happy to answer yours. I need clarification though, when you say re-baptized, are you saying that a person was baptized once as a baby, then goes on to lead a "sinful" life. Are you asking me if that person needs to be baptized again? Actually, the question was about an adult who had said the Sinner's Prayer and been baptized scripturally, but had "regressed" into sinful behavior, but once again wanted to be a part of the faith.
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Post by webrunner on Apr 20, 2009 20:11:02 GMT -7
I have not been shy about asking you questions. I'll be happy to answer yours. I need clarification though, when you say re-baptized, are you saying that a person was baptized once as a baby, then goes on to lead a "sinful" life. Are you asking me if that person needs to be baptized again? Actually, the question was about an adult who had said the Sinner's Prayer and been baptized scripturally, but had "regressed" into sinful behavior, but once again wanted to be a part of the faith. No, I don't think another baptism would be necessary. I dare say all folks continue to sin even after baptism. You touch on an interesting debate in the Protestant world, Badly. Some feel that once you've been saved you'll always be saved no matter the life you lead and others who feel that you can forfeit your salvation if you don't live as Jesus instructs.
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Post by badlygiven on Apr 20, 2009 20:16:33 GMT -7
True...it's an interesting debate...
My own take is that Jesus died for our sins and our salvation...but like anything else, God never forces us to do anything. He opens His arms, He opens the door to Heaven, and we can choose to walk the narrow path...or not...
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Post by webrunner on Apr 20, 2009 20:21:05 GMT -7
True...it's an interesting debate... My own take is that Jesus died for our sins and our salvation...but like anything else, God never forces us to do anything. He opens His arms, He opens the door to Heaven, and we can choose to walk the narrow path...or not... I agree with you whole-heartedly, Badly.
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Post by webrunner on Apr 22, 2009 14:39:42 GMT -7
I have not been shy about asking you questions. I'll be happy to answer yours. I need clarification though, when you say re-baptized, are you saying that a person was baptized once as a baby, then goes on to lead a "sinful" life. Are you asking me if that person needs to be baptized again? Actually, the question was about an adult who had said the Sinner's Prayer and been baptized scripturally, but had "regressed" into sinful behavior, but once again wanted to be a part of the faith. Badly I'm probably going to display my stunning ignorance here but I though that Catholics were baptized when they are infants. Actually a better way to say that, would be to say that Catholics had their children baptized as babies. Is this not the case? Also, I've seen some mention of purgatory and how it doesn't exist but had in the past. First, if you know, what is it? Second, what is meant by it doesn't exist any more?
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Post by badlygiven on Apr 22, 2009 19:50:34 GMT -7
Actually, for us Catholics, purgatory is still present...it's limbo that doesn't exist. (For many centuries, it was beleived that babies who died before they were baptized were in "limbo" since they were still "marked with the stain of original sin". With a new understanding of what original sin is, it was decided that God in His infinite mercy, hadn't let unbaptized babies just hang around outside heaven...He welcomed them in...hence, bye bye limbo. Just don't try to tell a "traditional Catholic" that...they still disagree with Vatican II)
Anyway, purgatory is on the path to Heaven, since nothing can come into Heaven unclean, we go through a refining and cleansing process before entering Heaven. Now, not being in the Bible as a "place" we consider it to be in there as a concept...danged interpretation!
The concept behind that cleansing is that we are sinful beings, as much as we try to be Christlike. we fail, yet God is so merciful that He lets us come into Heaven even though we are slightly soiled. The bath before entering is "purgatory" "the place where one is purged"...it is a part of Heaven, not a place where you are parked before God decides what to do with you...depending on how dirty you got before God called you home, is what determines your time in purgatory. It's like being outside a concert that you really want to go to, you know the time is gonna come to go in, but you gotta wait, and the waiting is endless...so it is with purgatory...we can see God from there, we know we're going to get there, but like a little kid who experiences life and gets dirty, we do the same. And like a parent who has to clean us up before dinner, so God cleans us up beofre coming to the Great Banquet.
As far as the baptism of babies...Jesus said that we are to beleive like children, but...He also said "let the children come to me" when the apostles tried to hold them back...The tradition of infant baptism is ancient, when whole familes came to be baptized, there was no age limit. ANd since we have the sacrament of confession, we are able to repent and try not to do it again...and hopefully fight the urge to misbehave. It is the responsibility of parents to be the light of Christ for their children, aided by the godparents, and the rest of the family. We also do adult baptisms, though, if the church has a font, we "dip 'em in"! (Immersion)
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Apr 23, 2009 3:55:00 GMT -7
Badly, I've heard some more recent rumblings from Evangelical Catholics that don't agree much with the older teachings on purgatory...one of the problems they feel they are experiencing stems from accusations from others (I assume) that they are embracing teachings that are more "Protestant" in nature some feel this is very unfair have you heard about any of this where you live? Web, my kids were baptized older-none were infants. In fact, my oldest kept telling us he had to go to the bathroom
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