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Post by webrunner on May 5, 2009 19:24:24 GMT -7
Aw, what nice, innocent children these two are.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on May 6, 2009 4:01:04 GMT -7
Why? What bothers you about corporal punishment in school? I think it's when schools got away from it entirely that discipline broke down and the kids gained control of the classroom instead of the teachers. I think there were a lot of factors that affected the break-down of discipline in the schools not the least of which included differing patterns in disciplinary measures at home over time, and administrative interference which limited teachers' ability to control and limit unacceptable behavior
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rosa
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Post by rosa on May 6, 2009 4:15:22 GMT -7
Speculation, Snil. Spanking is a deterrent in a way that detention, etc. just aren't. Or is it also speculation that the spanking caused the reduction? All it says is "that referral's to the principal's office are down 80%." statistically speaking we are not given enough data to definitively state the cause of the reduction, all we have is a casual, not necessarily a causal relationship. By the way I am just yanking your chain over statistical validity versus vernacular usage. but it's a solid point of reference nonetheless, as is Matthew's there's nothing in what we are discussing that argues FOR misbehavior, let alone the violence exhibited by the kids in the video you posted Web but there is plenty of evidence that documents correlatives between violence at home and misbehavior at school you asked why I oppose this even when a parent signs the permission slip: because I know parents who think it's okay to abuse their kids as a means of discipline. This is only one reason another is the fact that in too many cases, parents find that hitting their kids doesn't curb bad behavior-kids acclimate to being hit and they still do stuff that gets them into trouble
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Post by webrunner on May 6, 2009 6:28:52 GMT -7
So Rosa, you're in the "all spanking is abuse" camp too? I guess I was an abused kid then 'cause I sure got it at home. Not often but on occasion and always because I deserved it.
I posted that video because you all are talking about "beating (and now "abusing") children" as if all kids are Leave it to Beaver sweet and innocent, virtually incapable of doing anything truly bad or wrong. What should happen to those boys in the vid? Time-out? Have them write out 50 times "I will not beat my teachers" on the blackboard? I mean, we wouldn't want to do anything to harm their self-esteem now would we? Pardon the sarcasm but that vid p*sses me off and that looked a whole lot like a crime to me. But that's just me.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on May 6, 2009 6:39:04 GMT -7
So Rosa, you're in the "all spanking is abuse" camp too? I guess I was an abused kid then 'cause I sure got it at home. Not often but on occasion and always because I deserved it. I posted that video because you all are talking about "beating (and now "abusing") children" as if all kids are Leave it to Beaver sweet and innocent, virtually incapable of doing anything truly bad or wrong. What should happen to those boys in the vid? Time-out? these boys should be adjudicated and punished, and I hope they were. I don't think they should be allowed to attend that school again. Question: in such an extreme case, can you prove that hitting these boys would have prevented this? Where did they learn to behave this way to begin with? Another question: what is the parents' role here? Will those boys (i.e. their parents) sue the school district? all or nothing? I don't ascribe to all or nothing; I've rarely used spanking with my own kids, and one prominent reason why is because I understand their nature, I implement discipline in various means and it isn't needed and they are far from perfect spanking is hitting; the message it teaches is that there are times/contexts in which it's considered acceptable if you are trying to get a kid to quit hitting, for example, how does hitting him/her help convey that this is inappropriate? further, if a kid is being abused at home (not simply being hit, or hit excessively) do you really think that being hit at school is going to work?
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Post by webrunner on May 6, 2009 6:58:06 GMT -7
Sue the school? For what? Can you prove to me that those boys would not have benefitted from stricter discipline. Rosa, I asked about spanking/paddling in school. You're the one that, in answer to my question, recharacterized it as "abuse" then answered that question instead. I don't think I'm the one being "all or nothing" here.
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Post by matthew on May 6, 2009 7:16:01 GMT -7
I know convicted murders that were spanked as a child; so spanking may not be quite the deterrent you think it is.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on May 6, 2009 7:18:54 GMT -7
Sue the school? For what? Can you prove to me that those boys would not have benefitted from stricter discipline. Rosa, I asked about spanking/paddling in school. You're the one that, in answer to my question, recharacterized it as "abuse" then answered that question instead. I don't think I'm the one being "all or nothing" here. how is spanking more effective?
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rosa
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Post by rosa on May 6, 2009 7:33:03 GMT -7
web, there are extreme examples on both ends of this argument
I can speculate to my heart's content on what factors combined to create monsters like the kids in this and various other videos, but this wouldn't provide any answers
or any demonstrable "proof" that corporal punishment does or doesn't work
there are studies indicating that it does and doesn't work, that spanking does and doesn't work
I don't believe it's a proper use of discipline; when all other appropriate means are exhausted, it ought to be that schools have the authority and the power to send the brats home
but what has happened is that they have been sued repeatedly by the parents of "not my little darlings" who for whatever reason, haven't been up to disciplining their own kids
I've been really fortunate to have had mostly good teachers and my kids have too so far, but every now and then there's one bad apple among them....for one of my kids, it was a teacher who had no apparent effective communication skills
she couldn't relate to her students, she had a hard time relating to parents, she had few effective disciplinary skills (I used to volunteer in her class, mostly as a means toward keeping an eye out for my kid, frankly-she worried me that much)
and on the few occasions that I remember "helping" her out, it never involved my kid, it always involved her lack of patience and her seeming lack of interest in seeing things any way other than her own
not an admirable trait for a grade school teacher, but that's just my opinon. I would no more trust her to touch my kid or anyone else's, and that school's administration was continually barraged with frivilous complaints from parents
my point here is: there are no easy answers; I don't agree with handing over that level of discipline over to someone else. I've rarely used it myself
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Post by webrunner on May 6, 2009 7:40:27 GMT -7
Yeah, okay, I'll concede that spanking probably will not cure psychopaths. Spoiled brats on the other hand... Are you all trying to tell me that the threat of spanking has no deterrent effect on anybody ever? What about just the quaint and old fashioned notion that bad behavior earns punishment without having to delve into, now why did those poor boys beat that 60 some year old teacher unconscious?
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rosa
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Post by rosa on May 6, 2009 7:53:43 GMT -7
bad behavior earns punishment that doesn't have to come via hitting
there are all sorts of negative consequences to bad behavior, and all it takes is a little thought, some talking and even some creativity when necessary
it takes active parenting too
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Post by webrunner on May 6, 2009 13:32:34 GMT -7
Agreed and Rosa, I don't blame you and in fact agree with you about not wanting to turn discipline over to the school. I wish more parents were willing to step up and do what's necessary rather than leave it to the schools. I think corporal punishment should be a last resort and only with parental consent. Don't believe in it? Don't sign the form.
What I'm resenting here is the contention that I'm somehow pro child abuse. Debates of this topic invariably turn into accusations from the anti-discipline crowd that we just want to beat kids and that's just untrue and it's unfair.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on May 6, 2009 18:27:25 GMT -7
I don't think you're advocating for abuse Webrunner, any more than I think that anyone here is anti-discipline where the debate is for me is in what kind of discipline punitive measures can have their place and I won't go all touchy-feely. I was a bit of a hell raiser when I was a kid so I certainly expect to see some of that with my kids. BUt what I have noticed is that when they are encouraged to think about what their behavior is going to earn them the sometimes think twice. I don't ever remember doing that much. Heck, I see hope here. And I know you are a teacher and that you believe in positive rewards for positive behavior so don't go all vicious on me because you have already made the mistake of sharing some of your teaching philosophy with me.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on May 6, 2009 18:28:54 GMT -7
and as I recall, Web, you were kind of direct in telling me that my kids have it a bit hard! So, ;D trust me, if my kids turn evil, I know just what to do with them
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Post by webrunner on May 6, 2009 20:13:44 GMT -7
I believe you completely. ;D
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