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Post by webrunner on Apr 25, 2009 9:45:45 GMT -7
I know this'll sound strange coming from me, but please watch the tone here. If you really want to walk in this mine field, I ask that you all tread as lightly as possible.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 15:51:25 GMT -7
Cesar Chavez fought for human rights and for the rights of the farmworkers in particular. The vast majority of those farmworker are of Latino descent.
Snil, I said there's no such thing as "race" because so many keep telling me that to discriminate against someone who is of "hispanic" descenet is not being "racist". I wasn't pointing fingers, I was pointing out that some don't accept the terminology
I'm glad you discussed the fact that the owners are also Latino-xenophobia is another problem we could address, but we have to get past a couple of roadblocks first, I think.
I asked for empathy because in trying to look at it from another context, we can still see that there are problems that are experienced by these people. In the end, I would still advocate that we look at and try to resolve these problems, regardless of what "race" these people belong to...assuming it's okay to use that terminology
Farmworkers are still treated badly, exploited and abused, and this case exemplifies the attutudes that make this possible....I am not saying that anyone here has ever advocated for the abuse of anyone. I am identifying this as a problem, saying that in part it is indeed due to racism-to the perception that this group of people is expendable because of their ethnic background-
we should be trying to stop this, and legislators are at least addressing it. My dismay comes from the fact that it is 2009 and these things still happen
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 16:18:15 GMT -7
point taken Matthew; but I think some of the 101 work is worth the time and effort Snil and I have both agreed that we'd like to look at ways to move forward and find common ground; I'm sorry I neglected to provide the link in order to do that, we have to work a little, which I welcome the facts of this particular case will come out in trial. the attitudes that pervade these kinds of disputes do matter-the attitudes and negligence (for lack of a better word because these individals will be tried) do matter lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/today/aug22.htmlthis is only a brief look at the history. I see the attitudes that resulted in the challenges from Chavez, and I still see them today. I see them targeted at the farmworkers of today and this case was used to illustrate that work still needs to be done. There are perceptions about these people that include: (and I am not saying that anyone here is in possession of these attitudes, by the way) migrant farmworker are illegals migrant farmworkers are expendable migrant farmworkers are stupid/lazy migrant farmworkers do not deserve equal treatment or adequate pay migrant farmworkers do not deserve to be in this country because they take away paying work from "real" Americans I know this is hard, but my position is this: if you meet these people, you learn differently. And as to ignorance and racist perceptions, let me say this: they come from folks of all backgrounds all of this having been said, Snil made a very important point, which I will share: there is not one ethnic group, whites included, that has not been discriminated against at one point or another in the history of this country the Native Americans, blacks, the Chinese, Europeans and Jews (I'm including them in here)-the Irish, Italians, Russians, Germans, the Japanese....I could go on and on Mexicans kind of have a point at which they share some general background with Native Americans though, and I understand that many don't agree with this view. But the reality for many is that when the international boudary changed and so many lost their land and other holdings, that fostered a resentment that has taken generations to temper. This is not comparable to the sacrifices that others from other countries made to get to this country. Mexicans, their way of life, were already here. They didn't move, the border did. The devil was in the details of accepting the changes. Of being told that since the border had changed, their new language would be English, and they were now American. And unlike the ongoing white on black/black on white discrimination that STILL takes place today, there are others who come from different groups that are sometimes left out. In trying to have a reasoned discussion about this issue, I can understand why it's important to look to the future in trying to reach that common ground what I don't know how to do is ignore the things that still happen, because in validating that they happen, we can work on ways to change them. I think we can do this with an understanding that yes, people are still victimized but this is no reason to abdicate responsibility for oneself whenever that's possible. It's a matter of learning how to the wonderful thing about Al Sharpton is that he hasn't been invited onto this board. We might actually accomplish something ;D
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 16:59:42 GMT -7
Snil, I just re-read my post, and I owe you an apology.
I didn't realize how sarcastic I was being toward you-sorry about that. I didn't realize how that sounded when I originally posted it, and frankly, it wasn't even directed at you. I had in mind the "attitudes" I've referred to, and I shouldn't have directed that at you. You bore the brunt of something that didn't belong to you in the first place. Sorry
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Post by Tim Collins on Apr 25, 2009 17:10:23 GMT -7
OK just to set the record straight. Yes Racism still exists. Yes Racisim has been a justification for evil actions in the past and the present.
Now with the example you posted and the comment you just made regarding Farmworkers still get exploited. I ask again where is the racisim? This is economic exploitation and violations of existing law. Consider me blid but I do not see a racist act in this whole news story. Unless you want to claim that the behavior of the owners was taught to them by the whites.
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 17:19:19 GMT -7
it's kind of a combo of racism and xenophobia
the exploitation of these people that nobody outside of particular political movements cares about--they are of Latino descent, the link to the history, encompassing the exploitation and the racism is there. Why are they predominantly Latino? Cheap labor--certain accpeted generalized "traits" that make them "easier" or more "compliant" (particularly those that are in fact here illegally)? Hard to answer without further thought....yes, this is a lifestyle they choose, but it's in the absence of better opportunities elsewhere. Plenty can get out, but it sometimes takes generations
desperation can push people to accept work anywhere; I've met people who tried to get out, look for work elsewhere but when push came to shove, there were too many looking at the same time, the seasonal work was there and when you have a family to feed........
and Abeytia is a good example of that by the way. So are others that I know. Why do some get out and others don't? I have no space for all the things that I think contribute to this.
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 17:26:06 GMT -7
Hey snil, read this: www.jwharrison.com/blog/category/racismCésar Chávez Day and the Forgotten Asian Americans: By John Delloro March 31st, 2009 by Guest This Cesar Chavez Day (March 31) reminds us how forgotten stories can perpetuate stereotypes. Charlotte, an Asian American student leader at Pomona College, asked me how do we ignite people into political action and sweep away the tired public perception of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders (AAPI) as passive and docile. I asked her if she knew the story of Pilipino or Japanese American farm workers in the fields and she admitted she knew very little. Considering the last of the Pilipino farm workers from an earlier period died in 1997 and very little has been written in any depth, most of the students across all races I met that day shared this common amnesia. The story of Latino labor leader Cesar Chavez and the United Farm Workers of America (UFW) has been widely circulated to the point of Cesar’s birthday being designated as a California state holiday and President Obama declaring public support of it becoming a national one. It is a story that has both inspired and been used to awaken the sleeping giant of Latina/o political activism. The UFW battle cry of “Si Se Puede” has been adopted by the current burgeoning immigrant rights movement and its English translation, “Yes We Can,” by Obama in his recent successful presidential run. However, the story of AAPI farm workers has been lost as well as the true face of AAPIs. Many do not know that the 1965 Delano Strike, which gave birth to the UFW, was started by Pilipinos, not Cesar Chavez and the Mexican farm workers. As the summer heat of 1965 ripened the grapes of the Delano fields, Pilipino farm workers walked off the job and struck for dignity and better working conditions. Earlier, Cesar Chavez of the mostly Mexican National Farm Workers Association (NFWA) had refused the request of Larry Itliong of the predominantly Pilipino Agricultural Workers Organizing Committee (AWOC) to join the strike. A week after the strike began, Larry approached Cesar again and this time Cesar relented, with pushing from Dolores Huerta and his wife Helen Chavez, and the Mexican workers overwhelmingly voted to join the Pilipino farm workers. Both unions merged to form the UFW. Cesar became the head of the union with Larry as second in command. Dolores Huerta became First Vice President and the Pilipino farm worker leaders filled the rest of the top six leadership positions with Philip Vera Cruz as Second Vice President, Andy Imutan as Third Vice President, and Pete Velasco as Secretary Treasurer. Additionally, the strike led to large support from the Pilipino American community with an alliance forming between Pilipino farm workers and Pilipino professionals as the Filipino American Political Alliance (FAPA), the first national political Pilipino organization with Larry Itliong eventually becoming its president. By 1970, over 30 cities had active chapters. By the time of this strike, many of these Pilipino farm workers had over thirty years experience fighting and striking in the field since they arrived in the late 1920s and 1930s. Most struck within the first year on the job in the US . Even earlier, Japanese American workers actively battled in the fields. Growers thought AAPI workers were too militant and confrontational and began vigorously seeking out Mexican workers, who they saw as passive, subservient and docile. Over 40 years later, the narrative has flipped. Many perceive Latino/as as central to the revival of the US labor movement and swinging many important political elections in different places like California . Whereas, a number of people label AAPIs as culturally obsequious and compliant. Like the growers in the past who saw Mexican farm workers as submissive, many people today assume AAPIs come from a place which emphasizes obedience and passivity more than other cultures (Passivity is present in all communities). Community leader Myung Soo Seok once told me that defining Asian values as “not making waves” is an inaccurate “American” interpretation. This Cesar Chavez Day, we must restore the forgotten heritage of all people forged through struggle and remember the stories of AAPIs as a vibrant political force again. source
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Post by Tim Collins on Apr 25, 2009 17:40:07 GMT -7
it's kind of a combo of racism and xenophobia the exploitation of these people that nobody outside of particular political movements cares about--they are of Latino descent, the link to the history, encompassing the exploitation and the racism is there. Why are they predominantly Latino? Cheap labor--certain accpeted generalized "traits" that make them "easier" or more "compliant" (particularly those that are in fact here illegally)? Hard to answer without further thought....yes, this is a lifestyle they choose, but it's in the absence of better opportunities elsewhere. Plenty can get out, but it sometimes takes generations desperation can push people to accept work anywhere; I've met people who tried to get out, look for work elsewhere but when push came to shove, there were too many looking at the same time, the seasonal work was there and when you have a family to feed........ and Abeytia is a good example of that by the way. So are others that I know. Why do some get out and others don't? I have no space for all the things that I think contribute to this. OK nothing I do not know here - you are telling me the history of exploitation as seen from a race persepctive. Again - the story you posted was Latinos exploited by other Latinos in violation of laws that addressed exactly the conditions that caused the death and the oppressing latinos are being prosecuted - I ask again specifically what is the race issue here.
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 18:39:53 GMT -7
are you asking if race is at play or are you saying it isn't because the company was owned by Latinos?
just want to be clear
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 18:54:36 GMT -7
I guess part of my confusion comes from the fact that I understand that the conditions these workers are subjected to in a context of not only racial discrimination but one that's economic and institutional as well
to answer as directly as I can: the conditions this young woman died under were those that violated law, but also not uncommon as most farmworkers can tell you--the intsitutional "racism" in that it's still accepted practice to circumvent the law, considering the fact that this "practice" is targeted toward minorities who are already discriminated against elsewhere
these people aren't white, they are members of other minority groups....it wouldn't follow that "this could never be done to whites" here in the US. Why? Because it's assumed "whites" would never work under such conditions
I have to say, I would love to test this but I have never managed to get very far in exploring the williness of anyone I know to work under these conditions. But, I'll bet it's documented somewhere; I know these problems exist in Canada, and some of the "minority" groups there are what we would call "white" here....
no shade, few (if any) breaks, no water or water so distant that it's sometimes inaccessible to workers who are tired; frequent disputes over pay, insufficient or substandard housing, exposure to toxins, threats from growers, opposition to unions, illegal "dues" to growers....
the racism is part of the foundation; in this particular case, it's closer to xenophobia and class distinctions but the coporate inflexibility to providing better working conditions to migrant workers who also happen to be of certain minority groups has been recorded and debated for years
in this area of the country, most of the minority groups that experience these difficulties in attitude, perception, compensation and equal rights abuses happen to be of Latino descent
it is a facet of racism; it is racist to exploit another based upon ethnic origin/race, and yet it happens. It is racist to assume superiority over another based upon ethnic origin/race, and it happens
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Post by Tim Collins on Apr 25, 2009 19:09:30 GMT -7
OK so if I understand you correctly, this was not the result of a racist act by a racist, but rather the legacy of racism set the conditions by which this can happen? Is that what you are saying?
If that is so the you and I need to start with discussing the whole reason Racism ever existed, and it is a world wide practice. And if you want that discussion then do not start with a specific modern incident and then jump back in a time machine and say
This is an incident of racism because the parameters underwhich it took place would not have existed in the first place if raciism had never existed, because basically that is what you are saying here.
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 19:10:04 GMT -7
by the way, I am confused: "racism" as a justification for evil actions?
huh?
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Post by Tim Collins on Apr 25, 2009 19:17:45 GMT -7
by the way, I am confused: "racism" as a justification for evil actions? huh? Let's go back to the start to answer that. Why does any oppressing majority (or minority for that matter) always "dehumanize" the ones they wish to exploit? Answer - because it makes them feel better about themselves when they do unto others what they would not do unto themselves. Why did Japanese and Chinese for example use terms like gajin (loosely barbarians) to describe westerners? Answer because then they could kill them with impunity. Why did whites call blacks sub-human, apes and monkeys? Because if they saw them as equals then they could no so freely enslave them or kill them. Why did Spaniards enslave and kill natives of Mexico, South and Central America? Because these natives were inferior. Why did one Mayan or Aztec city-state, burn pillage, rape or plunder another city-state. Because they were the superior one. Why were Japanese call Japs, Dinks, etc during world war II? Because if they were humans it would be harder to kill them. Why are whites all "Anglos" because if they were all humans there may not be such hatred and suspicion toward them from non Anglos. That is how Racism is and always has been used to justify evil. We the superior can do what ever we want to the inferior, because it is in our own and their own interest (remember the white man's burden? remember the salvation of Christianity offered to the willing savages)
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 19:25:23 GMT -7
Did you ever read "Gideon's Trumptet"? another facet: when was the last time you heard of the rich discriminating against the rich? "No Mexicans Allowed" yes; "No Nig*ers" yes. "No Japs Allowed" yes "No Millionaires Allowed"... it's socioeconomic too Matthew's link has relevance too; hard to hear sometimes and I hadn't seen some of that stuff since college....in this country, a good part of it has been "white" vs. the other..... and by the way, let's not spare the knife when it comes to minorities and their racist attacks on each other! Ever read "The Invisible Man"? I highly recommend it
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Post by rosa on Apr 25, 2009 19:30:06 GMT -7
OK so if I understand you correctly, this was not the result of a racist act by a racist, but rather the legacy of racism set the conditions by which this can happen? Is that what you are saying? If that is so the you and I need to start with discussing the whole reason Racism ever existed, and it is a world wide practice. And if you want that discussion then do not start with a specific modern incident and then jump back in a time machine and say This is an incident of racism because the parameters underwhich it took place would not have existed in the first place if raciism had never existed, because basically that is what you are saying here. I guess I can see where you get that, but my point is that you can look at specific events that occur now and see the root of it in history just as you can see how efforts continue to keep aspects of it at play or relevant again, I point to Al Sharpton and you, I believe pointed to Jesse Jackson--both of whom we agreed had a vested interest in seeing the utility in not having things improve beyond a certain point
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