rosa
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Post by rosa on Mar 29, 2009 5:49:42 GMT -7
I think the movie is The Shoes of the Fisherman" I don't know if there was a remake, but Anthony Quinn did a great job as the Pope... Yep, I am one of those "open" Catholics...it's not that I hold any teachings to be untrue, it's just that I realize, as rosa says...that those teachings are written by and interpreted by human beings...with all the attendant frailties of humans... From "Keeping the Faith"...Ed Norton character..."my parishoners want me to be the perfect Catholic they could never be"...and there in lies the rub...that so many people want us to be so many things, and we also want people to try and understand us, for them to be the pefect Catholic as well...but it ain't gonna happen... You rosa, you snil, you web, you are all Christians, simply because in your respectful writings, you have shown His face...remember that questioning your faith, searching it is not a sin...but always be ready for the answer you don't like...no answer is preordained... Shoes of the Fisherman! Yep---hottest Pope ever ;D Snil, shame on you--"younger" than Anthony Quinn--never happen, he's timeless alas, my tirvia win will have to wait another day. Have to rent that movie "Saving Grace". I will try valiantly to improve my perception of today's Catholic church by imagining Benedict in this role as I watch it; if necessary, I will employ the use of alcohol to facilitate this Badly, that was a wonderful thing for you to say about us, and I will just think of myself while I say this: you say we are all Christians.....I think I'll pay the check on this one and try to make a not-so-graceful run for the hills you haven't seen the other threads, have you? ;D
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Mar 29, 2009 6:00:35 GMT -7
by the way, I'm giving into my evil side
and I enjoyed "Keeping the Faith"--it was a little too "hip", but I thought the dialogue between the priest and the rabbi was great because each was allowed to be human (all the trendy stuff aside) and they were open in talking about how this was affecting them
I don't want perfection from any church representative or priest. What I want is honesty and consistency. If they deem it so, then it should come from the examples they say they set
when they make mistakes, there is nothing wrong with apologizing. I see too little of this sometimes... some can't even acknowledge when they make mistakes at all. Accepting one's humanity isn't an error in judgement
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Post by badlygiven on Mar 29, 2009 7:33:31 GMT -7
so true rosa...I think today's "zero tolerance" social attitude makes it even harder to exerciae that needed humility of ackowledging our mistakes...because things we say "can and will be used against us"...
Everyone forgets about Jesus and the prostitute..."let he who is without sin..."...and the Guy who was actually sinless exercised mercy...
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Post by webrunner on Mar 29, 2009 8:18:28 GMT -7
You rosa, you snil, you web, you are all Christians, simply because in your respectful writings, you have shown His face...remember that questioning your faith, searching it is not a sin...but always be ready for the answer you don't like...no answer is preordained... Shoes of the Fisherman! Yep---hottest Pope ever ;D Snil, shame on you--"younger" than Anthony Quinn--never happen, he's timeless alas, my tirvia win will have to wait another day. Have to rent that movie "Saving Grace". I will try valiantly to improve my perception of today's Catholic church by imagining Benedict in this role as I watch it; if necessary, I will employ the use of alcohol to facilitate this Badly, that was a wonderful thing for you to say about us, and I will just think of myself while I say this: you say we are all Christians.....I think I'll pay the check on this one and try to make a not-so-graceful run for the hills you haven't seen the other threads, have you? ;D Or, in my case, other forums. Badly that was a kind thing to say. Thank you.
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Post by webrunner on Mar 29, 2009 8:30:16 GMT -7
so true rosa...I think today's "zero tolerance" social attitude makes it even harder to exerciae that needed humility of ackowledging our mistakes...because things we say "can and will be used against us"... Everyone forgets about Jesus and the prostitute..."let he who is without sin..."...and the Guy who was actually sinless exercised mercy... Actually, I think everyone remembers this story but forgets what He told her after He saved her. He said,"Go, and sin no more." Badly, I think it's interesting that you bring this up in the context of stones being thrown at the Catholic Church (which I think surely happens) but most critics actually see the Catholic Church in the role of the stone throwers.
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Post by badlygiven on Mar 29, 2009 8:43:46 GMT -7
I think there are some in each denomination (or even those who hold no belief) who see themselves as victim and some whose sense of "absolute righteousness" makes them think that they are perfect...many times, these people are one and the same...
I have few absolutes...other than Jesus died for my sins, he beat (not cheated) death in ressurection, and before He died He told me to treat others as how He treated us...if someone can die for me, how is anything less ever sufficent? I receive Him in the Eucharist, not as a talisman that makes me better than others, but as taking Him in to serve others in His name. In all of this, I am still very human, and as such very sinful...but I have a God who is loving and forgiving, so I must be as such....
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Mar 29, 2009 9:20:32 GMT -7
not to pick on the new guy or anything, but the skeptic in me is already wondering where the kinks are ;D and he's good, because he deflects this by speaking to his sinful nature
the truth is, we're all sinful. the unity he uses as a foundation is (and I know this sounds kind of goofy) a lot like what I hear when I listen to that piece I posted over on the music threads, from "The Prayer Cycle". The underlying beauty of the "message", heard even with all of the different languages that are employed and underneath all of the different cultural influences
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Mar 29, 2009 9:24:38 GMT -7
Badly, the "zero tolerance" perspective?
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Post by webrunner on Mar 29, 2009 9:33:40 GMT -7
I think there are some in each denomination (or even those who hold no belief) who see themselves as victim and some whose sense of "absolute righteousness" makes them think that they are perfect...many times, these people are one and the same... You're right about this. I don't mean to suggest only Catholics. Please. Probably there's no group more identified as stone throwers than Evangelicals and maybe Baptists. I do consider myself non-denominational but I've been known to attend Baptist churches. I have been accused of being a "stone thrower" myself (again, not by folks here). I have few absolutes...other than Jesus died for my sins, he beat (not cheated) death in ressurection, and before He died He told me to treat others as how He treated us...if someone can die for me, how is anything less ever sufficent? I receive Him in the Eucharist, not as a talisman that makes me better than others, but as taking Him in to serve others in His name. In all of this, I am still very human, and as such very sinful...but I have a God who is loving and forgiving, so I must be as such.... Again, I agree but here's the line I have trouble with. At what point does our desire to not be "stone throwers" actually turn into complicity?
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Post by webrunner on Mar 29, 2009 9:38:55 GMT -7
P.S. If this is offensive to anyone, let me know and I'll delete it immediately.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Mar 29, 2009 10:15:37 GMT -7
"complicit" in having a hand in another's behavior or choices?
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Post by webrunner on Mar 29, 2009 10:54:42 GMT -7
Maybe complicit is not the right word. How about "accomodating?" Is it possible to be too accomodating, such that we end up compromising that in which we believe?
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Post by badlygiven on Mar 29, 2009 17:31:43 GMT -7
here is where the words of St. Francis ring true...."preach the Gospel daily...if necessary use words"...
In the world of faith and belief, I think follwing the gospel involves preaching through action, and not vocalization. We take that which we are taught by our faith traditions, and apply it to ourselves, and the life we lead. If we are against homosexuality, we do not practice it. If we are against divorce, we find a way to work out out personal differences. If we are against abortion, we hold the act of conjugal love in respect and reverence, and either raise the unexpected blessing, or give him or her up for afoption.
In other words, our actions echo our faith...
Too many though (including my Catholic brethern, along with my Protestant brethern) it's blessings in, judgement out. It's cool to get all the great things God gives us, but that's not why we should be coming to churh...it shoulf be because we want to continue the work of Christ on earth...
rosa, "zero tolerance" in the sense that in all things we are expected to be perfect, or else we are damaged goods...the judgemnt being made by one as imperfact as us...
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Post by webrunner on Mar 29, 2009 19:54:07 GMT -7
Badly, thank you. I asked you a tough one and I asked it because it's an area that I have some trouble with striking the right balance. I appreciate your willingness to be open to these questions.
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