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Post by badlygiven on Apr 18, 2009 13:40:35 GMT -7
Catholics should read their Bible...but it's left up tot them to do it. It's not that we aren't "allowed" to do it...in fact, we are encouraged to do it, even if it is a little jibe about having to dust off our Bibles...lol
If you look at the homily, it is where the readings and the Gospel are brought into focus...the Liturgy of the Word. What's funny is that Catholics have been accused of doing what their priests tell them to do because they interpret the Bible for them, and Catholics aren't allowed or encouraged...plain and simple, we are lazy about it...(but getting better)
While we don't place as much emphasis on the "studying" of scripture during the Mass as our Protestant brethern do, it is a central part of Mass in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and it most certainly is a very central part of our faith...with the study of Scruipture getting better through the many scripture study groups that have sprung up as a result of retreats like ACTS. I wil say that there is more emphasis on the word for Protestants, while our emphasis is more on the sacramental, which in and of itself is based in Scripture as well.
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Post by webrunner on Apr 18, 2009 13:41:51 GMT -7
the point about offending...was related to Paul's caution in Corinthians about taking the Eucharist "unworthily"...and anout it being an offense to CHrist's Body. You can't offend a symbol, you can't offend something that is representative. You can only offend a someone. That being the case, if it isn't Christ truly present, if it isn't Christ really there in the species of bread and wine, then how can we offend the body? I'm not sure if you're asking me, as well, here, Rosa, but I'm working on wrapping my mind around your question. I'm not ignoring it. you can't "offend" something that is representative, but you can behave in ways that are offensive toward it. I would rather not do that by accepting it in the first place, if it means the difference between putting on a show for the sake of others, and doing what is in the heart, which God knows all about in the first place Indeed He does. Who's putting on a show? this isn't a place that I have much trouble with actually. I can understand a metaphysical, miraculous transformation taking place. Where I used to have trouble was in believing that a "corrupt" priest could be the vehicle for this transformation. I was challenged on this for a long time by a lot of people, and over time I've learned that God can use whoever He wants. Very true. Certainly King David was no angel. ;D I've seen some pretty awesome things in my life, so I don't have that much trouble with it anymore. I can't say that about other areas in the religion, but at least I can say that. Don't get me wrong, Rosa, I have no trouble accepting the miraculous either. The whole of Christianity is a series of miracles.
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Post by badlygiven on Apr 18, 2009 13:55:23 GMT -7
I think the show rosa means is the reception of the Eucharist for the person's image and "acting" all holy for the same sake. "It's not about Jesus, it's about me" thinking... Catholics are not the only ones susceptible to it...I'm sure you have a lot of brethern who put on a good "show" but know nothing about being Jesus to others. These same folks, Catholic and Protestant, tend to be the most "you're going to Hell" judgemental. They know "about" Christ, but don't "know" Christ.
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Post by badlygiven on Apr 18, 2009 15:16:47 GMT -7
Kind of as a caveat, which I think is understood already, but just to make sure...
I am not proselytizing to convert anyone to Catholicism...our Christian faith is so wondorously myriad that doing so is a disservice to ecumenical thought and dialogue. I am explaining the faith I practice, in the best way I can.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Apr 18, 2009 15:35:48 GMT -7
I think the show rosa means is the reception of the Eucharist for the person's image and "acting" all holy for the same sake. "It's not about Jesus, it's about me" thinking... Catholics are not the only ones susceptible to it...I'm sure you have a lot of brethern who put on a good "show" but know nothing about being Jesus to others. These same folks, Catholic and Protestant, tend to be the most "you're going to Hell" judgemental. They know "about" Christ, but don't "know" Christ. yes, that's what I meant....more precisely, going to confession, doing the penance and accepting communion because it "looks bad" if you don't and Badly, I may tease you now and then, but you aren't coming across as if you are trying to convert anyone. If we didn't want to learn anything, we would't be discussing it in an odd sort of way, the familiarity of the discussion is comforting--frankly, I'm getting more out of this than I usually did at mass!
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Post by crystal on Apr 18, 2009 16:28:13 GMT -7
I agree. Nobody seems to me to be trying to convert anyone.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Apr 18, 2009 18:22:01 GMT -7
Badly
confession
go!
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Post by badlygiven on Apr 18, 2009 18:34:38 GMT -7
I guess you saw my "Idiocracy" post on that other site?..
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Post by badlygiven on Apr 18, 2009 20:28:51 GMT -7
Okay, so I got your post...lol
There are 3 main passages in the Gospel that are said by Christ...Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18, and John 20:23.
Understand that this DOES NOT preclude people going to Christ directly. What it does is establish the fact that while it is Jesus that forgives sins, He did delegate to others...not in their name, or by their power to "loosen or bind" but through the power of Christ to forgive.
Understand that God's forgiveness is His to give. What reconciliation does is give a physical voice to Christ, a way for those whose sins are serious to hear the actual words of forgiveness spoken physically.
Initially, the sacrament of confession was a public, one time deal, and the penalties were harsh. Kings and other rulers who became Christian did so at the very end of their lives, because they knew they could not follow Him truly, and lead their people. It was the Irish who established a sense of privacy and also looked at the sacrament as a sacarment of renewal, instead of a one time sacrament. (There are 3 sacraments Catholics consider as one time, leaving an "indelible" mark on the conferee...Baptism (Triune and flowing water or immersion), Confirmation, and Ordination (once ordained, you're always ordained).
So what does this mean to Catholics today? It is still one of the most difficult sacraments to celebrate, because we have to give voice to the offenses we have committed, or the good we have failed to committ. However, it is also one of the most fulfilling...afterwards, not during, lol. There is a sense of relief of leaving those sins behind, never to be remembered. The sacrament is recommended to be celebrated once a year, at Lent preferrably.
One of thei things that ties in with this is the Penitential Rite that takes place at the start of Mass...
"I confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and what I have failed to do. And I ask Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God."
Confieso ante Dios Todopoderoso, y ante ustedes hermanos, que he pecado de mi voluntad, en palabra, obra y omision. Por mi culpa, por mi culpa, por mi gran culpa. Y le pido a Santa Maria, Siempre Virgen, todos los angeles y los santos, y ustedes hermanos y hermanas, que oren por mi ante Dios Nuestro Senor.
Wghat's the difference between this and reconcilation? Reconciliation is more detailed.
Now, what responsibilites does the priest have with reconciliation? First of all, mercy and forgiveness, if the person is repentant. And a seal that what is said in the confessional never leaves there...even if threatehed with death or imprisonment. And it is good, since we beleive that those sins disappear when Christ forgives them.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Apr 18, 2009 20:53:09 GMT -7
I guess you saw my "Idiocracy" post on that other site?.. that threw me, badly
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Post by Tim Collins on Apr 19, 2009 6:13:18 GMT -7
snil, "fallen away" my eye...lol. You have more understanding of the faith than many who attend Mass and look around to see what people are wearing. Mere attendance means little...you have to participate in the life of Christ in this present time to make any belief worth it. I see it in you, rosa, and web... Web, I think you will find very few Catholics who presume to have a free ride to Heaven...if they do, they suffer from sinful pride... Badly The apple does not fall far from the tree. My roots in Catholicism are pretty deep despite my Marxist upbringing. I left the Catholic Church, I have always said, because they educated me too well. Doesn't mean that as an agnostic I do not accept the possibility of there being a God, I just think organized religion, because of its multiplying effect on human beings tendency toward corruption is not the road to enlightenment. I stand on the outside looking in with eyes wide open, while at the same time looking outward. I guess I look at what is while searching for what can be. And Web Badly is wrong - us Irish have a free ride to heaven - Ireland is the original Eden, and we chased out all those pesky snakes. Still working on those darn English and their Orangemen collaborators.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Apr 19, 2009 8:09:08 GMT -7
the sacrament of confession is difficult, and blessed. If you want to receive communion at mass, you have to confess first. Of course, you can always lie to look good, but well You can confess to Christ or God, so the "need" for the sacrament? It's needed in order to received communion. They educated you too well, snil?
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Post by Tim Collins on Apr 19, 2009 9:20:28 GMT -7
They educated you too well, snil? Where do you think I learned about the 3 to 1 odds needed for men to be safe with women? Remember the serpent? If it had been Adam, Bravo, Charlie and Eve - that snake wouldn't have had a chance and we would all still be naked. ;D
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Post by webrunner on Apr 19, 2009 12:33:58 GMT -7
Kind of as a caveat, which I think is understood already, but just to make sure... I am not proselytizing to convert anyone to Catholicism...our Christian faith is so wondorously myriad that doing so is a disservice to ecumenical thought and dialogue. I am explaining the faith I practice, in the best way I can. Badly, I for one am grateful that you're willing to explain your faith as you understand it. These things I'm asking are questions that I have had for awhile but never had anyone willing to try to explain it to me. BTW, I think this is spot on accurate; I will say that there is more emphasis on the word for Protestants, while our emphasis is more on the sacramental, which in and of itself is based in Scripture as well.
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rosa
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Post by rosa on Apr 19, 2009 13:00:35 GMT -7
that last point got me to thinking, you guys, that's a good point and I hadn't really ever paid much attention to it
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